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dleach |
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Post subject: Coolant Flow Rate
 Posted: Mar 14, 2011 - 04:54 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Fair Oaks, California
Status: Offline
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Question!
What kind on instrumenation would be required (and is it available) to measure the rate of flow in in the cooling system?
The purpose would be to accurately balance the flow in a parallel two radiator system.
Don
Building a 6.0 |
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wire2 |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 - 02:41 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Milton, ON, Canada
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You'll need 2 flowmeters similar to this;
http://www.flowmeters.com/products/index.cfm?task=pgDetail&pgID=543
And a display to show the 4-20 Ma outputs.
Be prepared to spend ~$500
A much cheaper way is to drill & tap for ¼" NPT at the inlet and outlet of each rad, connect a borrowed differential manometer. Make your adjustments to match L & R, then, insert plugs.
OR, make a U-tube manometer with a length of clear plastic tube. |
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dleach |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 17, 2011 - 03:35 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Fair Oaks, California
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Thanks, I had about given up on any response.
I am thinking about this for the following reason: Factory Lamborghinisw have parallel flow in their two radiator coolant systems but most replicas have series systems because parallel systems do not seem to cool effectively in replicas. Iam theorizing that that is because the systems are not well balanced and most (or at least more) of the water is going through one radiator with the other radiator doing less than it's share of the cooling, the result being a cooling system that operates at 60% to 80% of it's design potential. As I said, just a theory; there has to be some0 explanation for the ineffectiveness of parallel systems in Diablo replicas.
Don
Building a 6.0 |
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wire2 |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 - 02:22 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
Posts: 295
Location: Milton, ON, Canada
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Your logic seems to hold water, Don.
I expect you're looking to add a bit of restriction to the higher flow rad to try to make them equally effective?
Another test is with an infra-red point thermometer, see which rad is running hotter, try to balance them from that? |
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dleach |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 - 04:24 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Fair Oaks, California
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I'm hoping to balance the sytem with the geometry. Lamborghini has those ram's horns fittings that look like they would divide the water evenly. Hydraulics are unpredictable. The fluid always takes the path of least resistance. Some kind of butterfly valve is probably going to be necessary.
Don
Building a 6.0 |
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jdinner |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 - 12:54 PM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Nov 10, 2003
Posts: 2894
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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| You need to install the two dividers in the centre line of the car like the real car, that would help. |
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RT |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 - 01:36 PM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 1511
Location: Buckingham, PA, USA
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Lots of people told me my parallel system wouldn't work well but when I ran my car I let it warm up completely and I had both radiators putting out even heat with the fans on.
I don't have a "real life" test yet under driving conditions. I do have the ability to change the flow routing to make it a series flow. The one thing to keep in mind with a series flow is; water in top, out the bottom of radiator one, then in the top, out the bottom of radiator two. If you add an electric water pump to assist in flow, put it between the two radiators.
An alternate system to balance the parallel flow would be some kind of thermostatic control of balancing valves on each radiator. Maybe using two engine thermostats, one each rad, would work. I do not have any experience with that but if one thermostat works on the engine, each side would allow enough flow comparable to a single thermostat.
I don't think Lambo does that, but you could.
RT |
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dleach |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 - 03:49 PM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Fair Oaks, California
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Thanks for your comments gentlemen, they are always welcome.
Jim, by dividers, do you mean the so called "rams horn" fitting that Lamborghini uses? Because they built their engine for the rear radiator setup, the waterports are in the rear. that way they can make their piping symmetrical which, I am sure, helps even the flow between the radiators.
Ron, I think your themostat idea has possibilities. I'll have to try to think that one through. Lamborghini doesn't have any balancing devices, that I'm aware of, so they must have extensively (or not...lol) tested their plumbing to be sure the water flow was balanced.
Wire2, the infra-red thermometer might be the simplest way to calibrate the system. After all, balanced cooling is the goal.
Don
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RT |
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Post subject: RE: Coolant Flow Rate
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 - 06:22 PM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 1511
Location: Buckingham, PA, USA
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Some thoughts on using two thermostats to control the water flow in a parallel system.
Thermostats have a small hole to always allow water through. They need that so the hot water will flow to the control coils and not have water "dead end" in the supply tube. With that in mind, if you place a thermostat at the inlet to each radiator with the coil facing the flow from the engine, the water will steadily flow to the thermostat, keeping them aware of the temperature. When the temperature rises, the thermostat will open allowing flow through that radiator.
If that radiator will not cool enough, the other thermostat will open too. You may have one radiator working more than the other but that wouldn't hurt. If one radiator is favored it would be because of the difference in the tolerance of the thermostat to open.
The only problem I could see would be the distance of the radiator thermostats from the engine thermostat. The engine thermostat would read the temperature and open. The flow through the other thermostats would remain slow until they get hot enough to open. That might not be too long but could be helped if needed by making the thermostat bypass hole larger to speed the flow.
Those are just a few preliminary thoughts on operation. I'll keep thinking about it.
RT |
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It isn't enough to want a Lambo, you have to want to BUILD A CAR!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49982981@N00/
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RT |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 18, 2011 - 06:35 PM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 1511
Location: Buckingham, PA, USA
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Here is a picture of how I piped my parallel water system.
I used stainless steel tubing and matching elbows and tees.
They are connected with short hoses and I used hose bands with hose clamps to mount them to supports.
The fittings above the pipes with brass plugs are to vent air from the pipes when filling the system.
RT |
_________________
It isn't enough to want a Lambo, you have to want to BUILD A CAR!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49982981@N00/
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dleach |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 19, 2011 - 01:43 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Fair Oaks, California
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What a cool (no pun intended) looking setup. Seeing that brings so many questions to mind that I don't know where to start. Is that the return water tube running under the left side induction manifold? I'm assuming the other water line (visible on the centerline behind the engine) tucks away similarly on the right side. Do those lines then make a 180* turn into the water pump? This is neat stuff, Ron.
The delay between the engine thermostats opening and the radiator one should not be significant. To me, it doesn't matter if the radiator stats open unevenly. I think it does matter for the flow to be equal when they are both fully open to get maximum potential cooling.
Your cooling plumbing looks well thought out and efficiently configured. Some of he systems that one sees are just sort of put together without too much thought other than getting the water from point A to point B. I'm not trying to criticize the work of anyone but tight elbows and straight tee intersections are inefficient and look to me like they would create a lot of turbulence and reduce water flow.
Don
Building a 6.0 |
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RT |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 19, 2011 - 02:19 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 1511
Location: Buckingham, PA, USA
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Yes, the return water line is under the supply water line to the radiators. I used straight tees to split the water to both sides and it doesn't seem to cause any problems. It probably would be better if I used sweeping elbows or something else but I centered them evenly so the flow is matched. The supply pipe has 45 degree elbows to step it up and over the return pipe and 45 degree elbows to direct the flow off to the sides. At the engine the pipes use one 90 degree elbow to connect to the engine.
I kept balance in mind when I designed it and I think it worked.
RT |
_________________
It isn't enough to want a Lambo, you have to want to BUILD A CAR!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49982981@N00/
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dleach |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 19, 2011 - 03:56 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Fair Oaks, California
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When you say "90* elbow to connect to the engine" do you mean to connect to the elbow on the water pump or is the water pump inlet in a transverse orientation? I think centering the tees going to the radiators is important.
Is that an SBC engine?
Don
Building a 6.0 |
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RT |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 19, 2011 - 11:23 PM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 1511
Location: Buckingham, PA, USA
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Don,
I took some pictures of the front of my engine. It has been a long time since I worked on this end of the engine.
Look closely and you can follow the radiator water flow.
The engine is an LT1. It is now a 383 with 32 valve hemi-heads which make it hard to identify
This shows the stainless pipe has one 45 degree elbow into a 90 degree hose.
This side has a 45 degree elbow down into a 90 degree elbow into a 90 degree hose.
RT |
_________________
It isn't enough to want a Lambo, you have to want to BUILD A CAR!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49982981@N00/
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dleach |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 20, 2011 - 05:40 AM
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KitCentral Fellow
Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Fair Oaks, California
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That's kind of what I meant by a 180. I have an LS1 so its going to be pretty much the same. Space really gets tight on that end of the engine. Thanks for the pictures , Ron.
Don
Building a 6.0 |
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